As for storytelling and John mentioning when writing his essay about the reenchantment of the world, feeling like it was flowing through him, Dion Fortune called it epigenisis, acting in concert with the universe with the blend of your timeless Individuality, and your temporary Personality. It devolved into “free will”, introducing evil.
Hence the need for reenchantment. The more one sees the 'divine' in all things (whatever you might call it), the more one is able to get out of one's own way. Especially, this modern ego is prone to act from a materialist perspective, hobbling oneself creatively.
That was a fantastic conversation, guys. I almost took to making notes about all the things I wanted to comment on, then realized it'd result in a stream of consciousness wall of text. So instead I will make one comment: I'd really like to see you develop many of these threads (all of them, really).
Other thought was, if consciousness is projected to our brains, if John’s MMORPG idea is even vaguely correct, then could the NPCs/ P-Zombies be better described as AFK?
If we're going with that model, then maybe AFK is a type of zombification (if the avatar was set to run some kind of auto-grind macro). But the problem with the MMORPG model is that if a compelling story takes place there, we still can't rule out the Story Force is at work, subtly moving pieces into place via "bugs" in the program, creator updates, inspirations in the players' minds, etc.
Autopilot until something interesting happens in the story? “It was like I was sleepwalking through life, until x happened. Then it was like I suddenly woke up”
I guess in John's version, it would be more like Pinocchio coming to life -- or Frankenstein's monster -- and finding out he was selling healing potions in a virtual store.
It's hard to comment on everything interesting in this long conversation, but as a writer of fiction myself for an indie game company, I really do identify with the divide that exists between the planner and the guy who "sees where the story takes him."
I am the latter. My boss - the lead writer/creative director of the studio - is the former. Almost since the beginning, he has sought to tyrannize me into his mode of doing; and of course, because he's my boss, I have to. And yet, it's totally against my nature. I intuit that a story cannot reach the heights it is truly capable of unless I am afforded some level of freedom to improvise.
As John said, a story takes hold of you - sometimes you do not know what characters will do and say - it simply writes itself. Yes, you need some idea of where you're going, but mapping everything out is completely antithetical to my process. In the beginning of my tenure at the studio - the first 350,000 words I published - I was strangely given a much wider berth, and thus created some of what I still feel are my best characters, stories, and narrative arcs. The feedback our players have given us seems to agree.
Now I am trapped in the stale realm of planning and being micromanaged - it's nauseating. I understand the desire to plan every detail, I do, but game companies are in the business of making games and *money*, and when we belabor every minor plot point it can often hurt the story in ways that make it feel stale, or worse - contrived.
I somehow have it in my mind that you, too, Mark, worked for a game studio. Do I recall correctly? I would love to know more if you're willing to share it; personally, I write fantasy for a narrative-heavy game. We lack visual assets and have only 1.5 artists (one is part-time), so we use what I view as excessive amounts of writing as a crutch for the game's story (most studios combine elements more seamlessly and don't rely so much on writers).
Great chat, guys. Hope you guys make time for it again at some point.
I’m surprised at how many times in the last month or two I’ve had reason to be grateful for having just read the Iliad. Though I’m still wondering how Agamemnon’s peace offering to Achilles hasn’t been memed to death yet.
Regarding modern Israeli war fighting, I think there’s some sample bias regarding their enemies. Tom Kratman’s written an essay on why Arab armies tend to suck, where he describes the Israelis as, I think, “a 2nd tier militia fighting against 4th tier crap.” It would be interesting to see what would happen in a war involving, say, Turkey.
I tested Brave on console and Android phone with no problem. I will reach out to an iPhone user (or, hopefully, one of them can give a report here). I’ve heard the app’s been a little wonky lately, so maybe you could try a reload later in the day.
As for storytelling and John mentioning when writing his essay about the reenchantment of the world, feeling like it was flowing through him, Dion Fortune called it epigenisis, acting in concert with the universe with the blend of your timeless Individuality, and your temporary Personality. It devolved into “free will”, introducing evil.
Maintaining such a state is very difficult. Of course, not something that can called at will. Not the personal will, at least.
Hence the need for reenchantment. The more one sees the 'divine' in all things (whatever you might call it), the more one is able to get out of one's own way. Especially, this modern ego is prone to act from a materialist perspective, hobbling oneself creatively.
That was a fantastic conversation, guys. I almost took to making notes about all the things I wanted to comment on, then realized it'd result in a stream of consciousness wall of text. So instead I will make one comment: I'd really like to see you develop many of these threads (all of them, really).
Thanks, brother. And, yeah, we'll probably kick it again, one of these days.
Cheers, man. Best kind of conversation, really.
This podcast is freaking nuts based on the week I've had... Thank you for doing this.
You’re welcome!
Listening now, and two thoughts I wanted to share. Instead of a Language model, what about a Trope model? Fair warning though, https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/JustForFun/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife
Other thought was, if consciousness is projected to our brains, if John’s MMORPG idea is even vaguely correct, then could the NPCs/ P-Zombies be better described as AFK?
AFK would certainly induce a zombie state, but NPCs would be a distinct phenomenon. Temporary vs permanent.
Ay, that's the scary version. I don't believe it's true, but not because it's scary. I believe lots of scary things are true.
If we're going with that model, then maybe AFK is a type of zombification (if the avatar was set to run some kind of auto-grind macro). But the problem with the MMORPG model is that if a compelling story takes place there, we still can't rule out the Story Force is at work, subtly moving pieces into place via "bugs" in the program, creator updates, inspirations in the players' minds, etc.
Autopilot until something interesting happens in the story? “It was like I was sleepwalking through life, until x happened. Then it was like I suddenly woke up”
I guess in John's version, it would be more like Pinocchio coming to life -- or Frankenstein's monster -- and finding out he was selling healing potions in a virtual store.
I wrote my book, The Rooster Rider, to combat the Evil Story. My story sucks less than theirs, by a long country mile.
https://www.amazon.com/Rooster-Rider-Knightly-Adventure-Creatures/dp/B09ZCVCWJ3/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&dib_tag=se&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.zxOKK5MSHo6DV7EChit5G1bpPMA8b4mEouyXXP7Y41eBqJhH8V9HXM--WdvsIQGm_XdG22WY8fUEXE8pz5tu2w.KVbEO4O4aPznNCs_dVDfOY_7Ep0qB3T1_wqBz-9beLs&qid=1729782232&sr=8-1
It's hard to comment on everything interesting in this long conversation, but as a writer of fiction myself for an indie game company, I really do identify with the divide that exists between the planner and the guy who "sees where the story takes him."
I am the latter. My boss - the lead writer/creative director of the studio - is the former. Almost since the beginning, he has sought to tyrannize me into his mode of doing; and of course, because he's my boss, I have to. And yet, it's totally against my nature. I intuit that a story cannot reach the heights it is truly capable of unless I am afforded some level of freedom to improvise.
As John said, a story takes hold of you - sometimes you do not know what characters will do and say - it simply writes itself. Yes, you need some idea of where you're going, but mapping everything out is completely antithetical to my process. In the beginning of my tenure at the studio - the first 350,000 words I published - I was strangely given a much wider berth, and thus created some of what I still feel are my best characters, stories, and narrative arcs. The feedback our players have given us seems to agree.
Now I am trapped in the stale realm of planning and being micromanaged - it's nauseating. I understand the desire to plan every detail, I do, but game companies are in the business of making games and *money*, and when we belabor every minor plot point it can often hurt the story in ways that make it feel stale, or worse - contrived.
I somehow have it in my mind that you, too, Mark, worked for a game studio. Do I recall correctly? I would love to know more if you're willing to share it; personally, I write fantasy for a narrative-heavy game. We lack visual assets and have only 1.5 artists (one is part-time), so we use what I view as excessive amounts of writing as a crutch for the game's story (most studios combine elements more seamlessly and don't rely so much on writers).
Great chat, guys. Hope you guys make time for it again at some point.
I’m surprised at how many times in the last month or two I’ve had reason to be grateful for having just read the Iliad. Though I’m still wondering how Agamemnon’s peace offering to Achilles hasn’t been memed to death yet.
Regarding modern Israeli war fighting, I think there’s some sample bias regarding their enemies. Tom Kratman’s written an essay on why Arab armies tend to suck, where he describes the Israelis as, I think, “a 2nd tier militia fighting against 4th tier crap.” It would be interesting to see what would happen in a war involving, say, Turkey.
"Though I’m still wondering how Agamemnon’s peace offering to Achilles hasn’t been memed to death yet."
LMAO, I'm guessing our memelords could have a field day with that. Especially the seven chicks from Lesbos. Maybe I'll have a crack at it... hmm
Proper Lesbians, not mere Sparkling Dykes.
Anyone else having a hard time getting it to play?
Hey Jeffrey. I haven't heard any reports of that. Which browser/device are you trying to play it on?
iPhone from the Substack App. My browser is Brave
I tested Brave on console and Android phone with no problem. I will reach out to an iPhone user (or, hopefully, one of them can give a report here). I’ve heard the app’s been a little wonky lately, so maybe you could try a reload later in the day.