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RobMc's avatar
3dEdited

Ok, I’m a Boomer. Are some of you assholes lumping ALL Boomers in the same bucket? Really? Golf Foxtrot Yankee.

So Boomers are too old to think for themselves? What the actual fuck, dudes. That is some arrogant, Progressive-sounding shit. Just wow.

When Covid hit and they started pushing the vax, I immediately smelled old fish. Never got the vax, almost got fired over it, and was quite willing to take the hit. I’m a Boomer and I think for myself. Imagine that shit.

Again, GFY.

“Technology is magic to most boomers.” Really Mark?! Really? There’s a reasonable chance you just pissed off 20-30% of your readers, maybe more. Nice.

Now that I got that off my chest, I think your Option 7 is plausible. Something scared the current powers that be, and I’m not sure anything scares the Donald.

The problem with Option 7 is that sooner or later it’s going to happen anyway.

Better rip the bandaid the fuck off now. If all hell breaks loose, so be it.

Being a Boomer, I almost forgot. GFY.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

I'm obviously just busting balls, Rob. After all, Boomers were the pioneers for much of the network infrastructure that created the commercial internet, and which backstops all this AI slop. And, as you'll see in the next article, Option 7 isn't really my own opinion. It's just something I think they might have weighed while planning strategies.

But since you peppered your comment with a bunch of GFYs, you'll forgive me for firing back in kind:

I don't give a rat's tiny hiney about hurting any group's delicate feelings in this Thunderdome of the "Dissident Right-o-Sphere." It is an arena where popular authors regularly label my faith a Jewish psyop, and write elaborate, pseudoscientific essays calling members of my own family subhuman. Case in point: some degenerate tranny that calls itself "Kulak" just posted a 45 minute screed titled "Christ was an Epstein Client." Not gonna cry about it. Gotta wear thick armor to play these kinds of games, and I do.

We all should. I know I mentioned laughter and merriment, but that's only afterwards. From what I can tell, this game gets much harder from here.

So GFY too, Boomer.

(But not really, brother. You're one of the good ones.)

;)

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RobMc's avatar

Apologies for overreacting, Mark, and starting this damn bar fight. I’ve got no quarrel with you, sir.

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Leo M.J. Aurini's avatar

My axe to your service in the next bar fight, boomer.

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JC's avatar

Kulak, in that essay, correctly identified "a" problem, and then promptly misidentified the the source, which could be more properly labeled the "nice son of God" created by cherry-picking and pretending He never explicitly said the Law was completed not replaced.

Which is to say, there are the usual bouquet of biases and synthetic straw man at work.

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Manaz James Kennedy's avatar

Ok ok. If you insist you are “our guy” and not a typical pill-popper, answer one question: Israel is ______?

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Mark Bisone's avatar

How about "a sinister geopolitical fiction masquerading as prophecy fulfillment."

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ALEJANDRO FIND TRUTH's avatar

HOW DO YOU GUYS KNOW KULAK IS A TRANNY?? what the ffff?

And how did you find out? I always read substack on my phone and all photos are tiny.

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Aaron Sellers's avatar

He's a dude who's persona is a CatGirl.

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Will Martin's avatar

Marky Mark, you’re still butthurt I asked you to help me kill myself in person. You’re not made for the Dissident Right, unless you count the BAPSphere because they get money from your boy Peter Thiel.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

I’m not butthurt about it, Will. I still don’t want you to kill yourself, and wouldn’t help you do it.

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Will Martin's avatar

Shut the fuck up with that BULLSHITTERY, Marky Mark! You're butthurt about it, you're butthurt about Kulak calling your Religion the Faith Of Epstein Clients. Your Absolute BUTTHURT is the only reason you ever talked to me to begin with!

Stop acting like you give a shit, you've never given a shit and nobody else has ever given a shit either! Get The Fuck Off The Online Right. Pack it up back to your Buckbroken BUTTFAGGOT Church and Cry About It To Jewsus.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

Are you referring to Kulak the catgirl troon? LOL.

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Will Martin's avatar

Among many things, Marky Mark! I know the fight between you is fake because you're both BAPNiggers in the Wider Sphere. AGAIN: Your Absolute BUTTHURT is the only reason you ever talked to me to begin with!

Stop acting like you give a shit, you've never given a shit and nobody else has ever given a shit either! Get The Fuck Off The Online Right. Pack it up back to your Buckbroken BUTTFAGGOT Church and Cry About It To Jewsus.

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Charles Wemyss, Jr.'s avatar

You make a very salient point. There are some of us Boomers, that have not had the electric cool aid acid test freeze our brains. People forget that the Silent generation and all of the warriors in Vietnam were indeed BOOMERS. They were and are still either forgotten or still reviled. I served as an Infantry Officer in the USMC just a few years after the end of the Vietnam conflict. I was so lucky to be surrounded by those guys that went and fought (almost all wounded) and gave foundation to leading and thinking always about my Marines and their mantra “never again.” It has been a mix of boomers and X’ers that have us in the pot of stinky stew right now. Trump’s immediate problem is Pam Bondi, she F’d up. But Bongino throwing a temper tantrum hasn’t helped. At some point it will reveal itself. Something went on for decades with this “creep” Epstein, as POTUS aptly described him. Sooner or later enough will seep out and we can all draw our own conclusions. Personally, I thought Bondi was a bad choice, too political, but politics is a dialogue and to some degree one discipline of consensus, so maybe the guy who dealt with the MAFIA to build tall buildings in Manhattan did a deal. He can always do another. Hey Pam, I need you to be special counsel on the Epstein Files, it’s so important only you can do it. In the meantime clean out your desk. Problem is, who wants the job of AG? Exactly.

I really appreciated your stand on some of us boomers. In the meantime have fun watching the other boomer bunch wear tie dye shirts, open toed Birkenstocks, knocking down blood thinners and cannabis gummies like there is no tomorrow and heading for “No Kings” rallies! Reliving the moratorium marches of 1970. You can’t make this shit up so enjoy it while it is live and in color.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

I'm starting to regret using "Boomers" as a rhetorical and comedic device. The point I was trying to make was about the post-war strategic ethos of M.A.D, and how it might shape the judgment of Trump in a situation like this.

That's why I wrote: "This isn’t meant as a dig against Boomers, who are often more maligned than they deserve. In this case, it would be like blaming a blind man for blowing a red light (although, we might reasonably ask why he saw himself fit to drive in the first place)."

The "red light" is essentially M.A.D. as a guiding principle in "magic" warfare, which may blind the drivers to other tactical opportunities. I don't hate Boomers. Some of my best friends are Boomers.

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Charles Wemyss, Jr.'s avatar

Don’t regret using the “boomers” as a device, we deserve all the ire and ridicule that can be thrown out. A certain cohort of the boomers, were told that they could do anything and everything. They went to Woodstock, protested the war, not out of moral outrage, but because McNamara was running out low IQ recruits, aka The McNamara 100,00, and they figured they were next. After occupying the local college president’s office, they went on to pinstripe suits and occupied Wall Street. They stole everything, and now some are feeling guilty. Sort of…Go figure. I like the idea of a blind man “blowing a red light.” Especially if a Gen X’er is the cop who pulls him over and is trying to make sense of the red and white walking stick in the passenger seat. Either we can take the heat, or melt. In the main as John Wayne reminds in the classic movie “She Wore A Yellow Ribbon” Never apologize, it’s a sign of weakness. Carry on the post was great.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

Thank you, brother.

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RobMc's avatar

I was in the Navy for 6 years, during Viet Nam, on missile submarines (oddly enough, nicknamed “boomers”). Got out a year before it ended. Was honored to serve.

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Charles Wemyss, Jr.'s avatar

Thank you for doing what so few were and are willing to do, especially in the time frame we are talking about. The Skipper of the Whaleback, was my neighbor. He and the Crew spent a summer (not sure of the year) on the floor of Haiphong Harbor, essentially a long and deep recon mission. Those of you who served in the Silent Service deserve a Hell of a lot more credit than you generally get, but what the Hell, it’s not just a job, it’s an adventure. We who did serve, shall never hold our honor cheap. We few, we lucky few.

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RobMc's avatar
1dEdited

Thank you sir.

The Grunts that were in the grass over there are my heroes. I slept in a dry bunk every night, hot chow and hot showers every day. Them, not so much. Still, any that serve in any capacity, serve.

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Fukitol's avatar

One of the things the rest of us find annoying about your generation is your inability to deal with generalizations. Every time someone says, "Chinese people are short" one of you pops in with an angry rant about how you know a tall Chinaman.

If the shoe doesn't fit don't wear it.

Inb4 "but I can deal with generalizations just fine!"

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Mark Bisone's avatar

I'm pretty sure Rob gets it, actually. He's just busting my balls, too.

And he's right that it's not all Boomers, obviously, just as you're right that generalizations aren't useless. That's particularly the case in comedy, where we're given wide latitude to explore uncomfortable observations about reality.

I'm actually more worried about Gen X right now. They are fully in play, and are more likely to start and join AGI cults. In fact, that already seems to be happening at an alarming rate.

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Fukitol's avatar

Yes. Our generation seems to be incapable of distinguishing science fantasy from reality. Way too many people our age think Star Trek and Neuromancer were prophecies because the word “science” is in the genre. Watching X and elder millennials fall hook line and sinker for tech industry PR bullshit is as exhausting as watching younger millennials relate real life events to Star Wars and Harry Potter.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

Exactly. The minds of Gen X were polluted with The Science long before Covid. You can say that about the Baby Boomers too, but their form of social programming was more about selling them infinity prescription bottles. X still got the bottles, but we also got shipped the "Your brain is a computer" perception model. Star Trek's Data was an even more disgusting abomination than C-3PO, and most of the AI hedz got addicted to that kink.

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Leo M.J. Aurini's avatar

We were over-narrated. So suffused in magic that we forgot the real world where it applied.

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RobMc's avatar

One of the things the rest of us find annoying about your generation is your inability to avoid generalizations. Generalizations are the safe harbor for simple minds.

Other than that, I’m sure you’re a fine fellow.

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Manaz James Kennedy's avatar

Your lucidity is judged on one

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Bugey libre's avatar

French Gen X here. Truth must be said. During the huge demos here in France against covid scam tyranny, taking place every week for months in the whole country, many of the staunchest were boomers. Gen X constituted the majority. As to the younger generations... Few of them, sadly. But I have been amazed by the energy, cleverness, brightness of those who were with us.

That being said, most boomers are living en the 80's and are just pathetic.

Respect

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Mark Bisone's avatar

Many of the people I respect the most in my personal life are in their 70's and 80's. They include veterans that got used and abused by an earlier model of the same Machine we're fighting today.

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CStone's avatar

I’m in my 70’s…..large group of friends. None of us got the shot.

The idiot who posted this is totally an irrelevant narcissist, who knows no one, has no new ideas, and is only parroting what he/she/it has been told to say.

I have zero respect for these little trans upstarts. They know NOTHING, have been through NOTHING, refuse responsibility for ANYTHING, probably never had a REAL job in their life, yet feel entitled to EVERYTHING.

Fatigue has indeed set in.

As you said, “Golf, Foxtrot, Yankee”

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Last Redoubt's avatar

shut up, retard.

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Restore: Dixie's avatar

That this is your reaction just proves the point.

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Copernican's avatar

Ok, boomer.

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Will Martin's avatar

Lol, Okay Boomer. Get back to your nursing home and get beaten to death by the Niggers you thought were okay to let loose among society.

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Joseph Hex's avatar

I just finished a book about Hernan Cortez. He was a very cunning leader. He of course was up against the entire Aztec Empire, but also faced enemies within. There were multiple mutinies against him. After catching the ringleader of one mutiny he was able to acquire the "client list", so to speak, of the cabal; they had all signed a document agreeing to revolt and and specifying how they'd divide the prize.

So Cortez had in hand a list of 300 or so names of the conspirators. But instead of revealing the list, or using it to round up the disloyal, he lied and told everyone the ringleader managed to swallow it. The ringleader was executed, and Cortez just sat on the list. All the conspirators knew there was a list, but they couldn't know if he knew, and he now had a list of people to watch very closely.

This situation reminds me of that. I agree that Option 3 is very possible, except Trump is no Cortez and he botched the job. He told everyone he had the list, most importantly the people still loyal to him, then later said, "Nope, garsh darn, he ate the list. I never had a list." Now we doubt the list and his credibility. Bad move.

Loved the essay and especially the twist at the end. All this is wrapped up in a larger theme of total lack of trust due to a malleable reality, and more importantly, how to execute justice when visual recorded evidence is unreliable.

Thanks!

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Fukitol's avatar

Plausible. Certainly what they'd do if tapes were released. But I doubt anybody wants to see the tapes. Just prosecutions. If that ever happened, I was already braced for them to fail to prosecute certain suspects for political/strategic reasons. I was already prepared for Bill Gates and the like to get the house arrest treatment at best.

I was *expecting* a competent lie like, "we can't name names because of ongoing investigations. We don't want the people we're going after to flee the country or have a head start in preparing a defense." And then slow walk that for years until the other party takes power and smothers the whole thing.

What they gave us instead was insulting. At this point as far as I'm concerned they're all pedophiles and accomplices until proven innocent, more out of spite than for any serious reason.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

I'm not sure what's going on right now. Very noisy. All explanations are on the table.

I'm not sure what people want more generally. Prosecutions, sure, because that would signal a sea change. But also, I think they mainly just want their lives and fortunes to improve. They want their kids to grow up without dodging foreign cartel soldiers and drug zombies, or having their wages depressed by H1B scabs, or being indoctrinated in some kind of self-hating suicide cult. If they see all that beginning to happen, they might also decide to forget about "that creep" and his Fantasy islanders.

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Will Martin's avatar

We Want Blood Shed Upon The Ground, Marky Mark.

Name Names: Who Do We Kill?

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OGRE's avatar

Mark, this is literally the exact same thing that I was talking about the other day.

The Epstein videos are worthless – because nobody will believe that they are real.

I posted this the other day:

*****

They’re never going to show anyone anything substantive from what the FBI has on the Epstein perps – because of the number of influential people involved.

If they drop the names of all the people who were involved in atrocities facilitated by Epstein, there would likely be global societal collapse.

Remember the Hunter Biden laptop? People should have caught on back then – the FBI worked to cover that up. That’s just one person’s son. That’s bad enough on its own, but imagine if that were the case for a majority of federal-level politicians and judges worldwide? These are people doing the kinds of things that would get them killed in prison – because the world’s worst criminals know that it’s wrong!

I also think that they’re running out the “technology clock,” so to speak. Deep fake videos are very close to being indistinguishable from the real thing. I’m sure at some point the actual videos will be released, but by that time, the perps will have plausible deniability – because the videos will be claimed as deep fakes.

Consider, if most of the “world leaders” are a bunch of creep-ass kiddie diddlers – not that we think they are – but there is actual video of them molesting kids, who would follow the law anymore – anywhere?

That’s what I think this is about, and why we’re never going to know who did what, because the public would rise up, and they would start taking people out pitchforks in hand.

My guess is that Kash and Dan have seen enough, and now they know that everything political (on a global scale) hinges on this info never being released.

*****

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Mark Bisone's avatar

Great minds think alike, OGRE.

But I disagree with their conclusion. Now is the perfect time to pull the trigger on the Reality Bomb. I'll explain more in my followup post, but I think this is our best window of opportunity, where the pitchforks and torches can still get the job down.

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Nonoptional Advice's avatar

If blackmail material becomes worthless, Satan played himself and lost. lol. He just might have done that, too. I hope so, as that industry of self producing blackmail deliberately as a permission slip to enter politics is a horrible vile industry that needs to die for the sake of its victims.

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A Madman in the Agora's avatar

“…you should be suspicious of any guy named Walt”

Mr. Bisone, are you referring to anyone in the room with us right now?

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Mark Bisone's avatar

Disney? Benjamin? Kelly? Whitman? Matthau? Mondale? Raleigh? White? It would probably be easier to name the trustworthy Walts, at this point. I'd keep an eye on most of the bastards.

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Dave the barnacle's avatar

Hmm, a sort of a narrative "Kessler Syndrome" . . .

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Mark Bisone's avatar

That's actually a pretty decent analog, Dave. Although, I think the ultimate effect would be different than the doomday scenario.

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Dave the barnacle's avatar

el gato malo had a similar take on this idea https://open.substack.com/pub/boriquagato/p/will-ai-shrink-the-world?r=1mmzzt&utm_medium=ios. Also, I wouldn't necessarily call the Kessler Syndrome a doomsday scenario, extremely inconvenient, yes, but humanity won't all die just because we don't have satellites anymore. Also, I'm thinking about how the Dunbar number idea fits into this discussion. For example - in my families social circle, we probably won't ever automatically distrust the updates and photos of vacations, grandchildren, cousins, etc. that get passed around from phone to phone.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

"Also, I wouldn't necessarily call the Kessler Syndrome a doomsday scenario"

Me neither. I meant the outcome as framed by "Agent Smith" in my scenario.

As for Dunbar's number, there's definitely wisdom in the idea of concentric trust circles. It was pretty normal in the pre-Internet days, edging out right around the people who worked at businesses you patronized and/or collaborated with on a regular basis. Now, in the era of faceless avatars on glowing screens and TikTok clips of strangers, we'll need to build very high walls at the edges of our Dunbar Castles, and rigorously police the gates. The projects are in fractal alignment with our physical boundaries and borders, which are also full of gaping holes at the moment.

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Will Martin's avatar

Lol, isn’t El Gato Malo some kind of BUTTFAGGOT BAPTard?

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Dave the barnacle's avatar

Interesting - it's like J J Binks tryna be a dark edgy edgelord just entered the chat - a bit cringe IMO - you need to work on your affect, Will . . .

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Mark Bisone's avatar

For years I thought it was a bot. But apparently it is some kind of closeted homosexual with Tourette syndrome and a death wish.

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Will Martin's avatar

Nope, not homosexual nor closeted in any way, Marky Mark! You're still a butthurt ChristNigger!

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Will Martin's avatar

Cringe Harder. Cringe until your fucking skin falls of.

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HUMDEEDEE's avatar

😳🔥💥

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Jim in Alaska's avatar

" It will be dismissed as “fake news”, ...."

Hey I resemble that! I decided quite a while ago it's best to assume anything and everything anything the government, any government, or the media, any media says is a lie until or unless proven otherwise.

AI lies, t'ain't no thang, just more of the same game.

When the movies first came out some folks ran from the theaters to escape the train charging them from the screen. While I am a mature adult, older than President Trump, those runners were a wee bit before my time so my observation is based on hearsay. However it does suggest folks adapt to the next great things that come along and will most likely buy AI but not the whole cloth as time goes by.

So! Takes one through seven, any of and many combinations of same could be we'll see, or maybe not.

Bottom line, from where I'm sitting, up here atop the world it don't make no nevermind. I give unto Caesar as niggardly as possible. I comply with the edicts of Augustus less or more or less. & the following quote I've often posted before; "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.", -Albert Camus

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Mark Bisone's avatar

One of these days, I'm gonna get up there and buy you a beer, brother Jim. Or maybe trade you one for a sled dog. That's the going rate, right?

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Jim in Alaska's avatar

Actually sled dogs sell for a pretty penny.

Here is one ad I found; "We are currently taking applications for sprint racing sled dog puppies. Pups are $2,500 USD and require a non-refundable $500 deposit."

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Mark Bisone's avatar

I guess that will have to be one he’ll of a beer then. Imported from Mars.

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Bugey libre's avatar

Very, very interesting read. I can't go further then my subscription and I hope you find financial relief.

As professor Thorsten Pattsberg explain, Substack is a big problem.

There is a she cat on my lap while I type this small comment to show deep appreciation of your work... Is it really a cat? Is the hair I have to broom every day real hair?

Merci

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Thumbnail Green's avatar

I like your work here but I'm blackpilled on this one. It's mafiosi banker shit that Trump bows to and that's all she wrote FWIW

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Mark Bisone's avatar

Like I said. I don't have psychic powers like the rest of you hundred-percenters.

But I will say I don't think One Ring is less blackpilled than Made Man. Its actually much darker, in my book, since it leaves the current rot in place and adds a new layer of corruption on top of it. To wield the Ring for advantage, you need to cover up the fact that you are wielding it. Therefore, you'll need to co-opt or rebuild the network of evil agents that enforced it, with all the rape and murder that implies. The notion that you could do so in service of a "greater good" is laughably insane, but that's what invisible power makes you. Insane.

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Thumbnail Green's avatar

Well I'm not really a 100 percenter as I remain open (being NOT God) but I'm just getting strong signal through noise to back up my perception. I agree with what you've written here that the Made man is corrupted and corruptible.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

Even Option #1 could be bad. It suggests they might be trying to get too fancy and complicated with this shit, and wind up torching their credibility even if they do eventually drop the hammer. Complexity = fragility,

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Will Martin's avatar

So, you’re a Plan Truster who’s gotten grifted so hard he can’t understand anything else?

You’re A Cuck, Marky Mark! A Christianized, Deracinated CUCK.

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Ignatius of Maidstone's avatar

Interesting thought experiment, with frightening implications.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

Yes. But I am more optimistic about the ultimate outcome. "Death to screen trust" is the closest I'll get to a Platonic battle cry.

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Big Mike's avatar

What a remarkably entertaining yet disturbing article. I already know people who think "everything is fake". I mostly do too, up to and including the "moon landing", and that was a long time ago.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

Its definitely a better position to be in than absolute credulity (i.e. "Everything is real"). But the best position is discernment. We need to train ourselves to filter out the noise. I actually think deepfake slop will help with that, for those who can still be saved.

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alexsyd's avatar

I hope you are right but Warhol had a point about the "stars" (and being famous), and if the masses don't believe in some sort of antidote, I'm not sure.

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David Woods's avatar

Yes, deep fakes can be turned on anyone to discredit them.

Trump and team are not stupid, and would understand that. According to one AI, AI can identify deep fakes.

The question is what happened that led to this total flip-flop? The BeyondMystic tarot reader suggests a large scale threat of many dying.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

"According to one AI, AI can identify deep fakes."

That's rather like saying, "According to the defendant, he didn't do the crime." :D

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V. Dominique's avatar

I just finished posting a response to a comment on another substack that referred to "... at the local level even the most diehard libs, boomers excluded as there’s no hope for them, are seeing the local effects of policy and recoiling from the dem messaging."

To which I wrote, "Regarding boomers, I do find it ironic that those who identify as the right or MAGA refer to them as "diehard libs" while those who identify as left refer to them as morons who watch FOX News. So which is it? Both? Truth is both left and right have been trained to hate "boomers" for the last fifty years because it distracts from the real culprits."

Bill "Manboobs" Gates is a boomer. Jeff Bezos is a boomer. Ray Kurzweil and quite a few of his fellow transhumanist technocrats are boomers. Pretty sure none of them think technology is magic, and neither do I.

My father worked in a computer lab in the '60s. You could even say that I grew up around computers. They weren't magic then and they aren't magic now. I also realized at a young age that you can't believe everything you see on a screen, be it a TV, a computer monitor or that tiny little screen on a cellphone, the latter of which I have never owned and for very good reasons.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

This article doesn't actually have anything to do with Boomers. That was just a rhetorical device to set up M.A.D. as that generation's strategic lodestone.

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Manaz James Kennedy's avatar

Nice spread of possibilities, thank you!

A large part of your argument, though, hinges on us seeing the videos, which I hope we never do. That is a Red Herring, good faith or not. The FBI does that work, not the Public.

I think we’ll see a bypassing of most videos, since masks could’ve been used to fake the perpetrator in filmed attacks and then shown to the assets to-be-controlled. “This isn’t you but no one will believe you” has been a power gambit for way longer than AI.

If anything progresses on these creeps, it might be in relation to missing persons rather than those accounted for or who survived.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

"I think we’ll see a bypassing of most videos, since masks could’ve been used to fake the perpetrator in filmed attacks and then shown to the assets to-be-controlled."

I guess my counter to that would be: if it was that simple, why bother with the elaborate risky, and expensive ruse of Little Saint James, the bugged mansion, the desert compound, etc. My thoughts are that they wanted their blackmail to be compromised, body, mind, and soul. Otherwise, one innocent man with a set of balls could blow up the whole operation.

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Allison's avatar

Which option is the one where the public at large realizes that the entire global power structure is staffed by pedophiles (and worse) and that every decision they make is to preserve their ability to continue to act with impunity. And that the definition of ‘National Security’ has literally nothing to do with the ‘nation’ and has only to do with the ruling elites power structure. And worst yet, it turns out every god damned conspiracy ‘theory’ is true.

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Mark Bisone's avatar

Coming to that realization is up to us, not them. But Option #1 (if followed through to completion) might help some people get there who otherwise would not have.

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