I'd put my money on the koryos, in the koryos vs phalanx showdown. The Germanic tribes of the 1st century AD were more or less the direct descendants of those lads, and the Roman legions couldn't take them, despite their superior weaponry, tactics, and famous discipline.
I was reading up on the koryos a while ago. We'd do well to bring something like that back as a coming of age. The ancient Greeks understood that civilization could only really be justified if it enabled barbarian vigor to be preserved, and consciously sought to make themselves the middle path between barbarians such as the Scythians, and over-civilized peoples such as the Persians ... though it was the Scythians they admired more.
I've often felt that we could achieve quite a bit if we raised our youth as if it were the bronze age, and only after they passed their coming of age tests allowed them the comforts of modernity.
"I've often felt that we could achieve quite a bit if we raised our youth as if it were the bronze age, and only after they passed their coming of age tests allowed them the comforts of modernity."
I agree with that in theory. It's a fine line. On the one hand, you don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, which in this case could be the sacrifices and hard won victories of the past. On the other hand, Western kids today are as soft as melted butter. And the koryos are still out there prowling the countryside, albeit in different skins.
I think organizations like the Boy Scouts were intended to capture something of this effect, albeit under adult supervision and without the rape and murder.
"The Germanic tribes of the 1st century AD were more or less the direct descendants of those lads, and the Roman legions couldn't take them..."
I know what you're saying, but I attribute that less to comparative battle fitness than to lack of interest and the general exhaustion from previous expansions. Most attempts at conquering seemed half-hearted to me. Much of the territory was forested wasteland, not fit to plunder and with poor bivouacking potential. Plus legions required a lot of support in terms of supplies, and armies march on their bellies after all. In fact, I think that was the weakest aspect of their military, at least by that point in time.
ETA: And that's not even to mention the waning of their virtue structure by then, at least among the patricians.
I agree. The Romans had no interest or need in the northern extremities of Europe such as Caledonia, Hibernia or Germania. Rome was supplied by everything it wanted from the regions around the Mediterranean. The only exceptions were luxuries such as silk from China, spices from India and South Arabia, amber from the Baltic.
The Romans successfully pacified those parts of central Europe they wanted (in Switzerland) and the cost/benefit ratio of investing in the logistics necessary to do the same in Germany east of the Rhine suggested calling it quits. Traditionally, the saner Germans often used to say that this was a pity and that they would have benefited from the Romans pushing eastwards. There is much to recommend this perspective.
This is a good point. Olive oil, for instance, congeals at high latitudes; the Romans were unwilling to switch to butter, which put them at a disadvantage.
Not be a spoiler, John, but the last time modern people, capable of industrialised warfare, embraced heroic world-views (the decades beginning in 1914) tens of millions died and left the very legacy of demoralisation with which we struggle today. Old fashioned ideas (especially Bronze Age ones) have much to teach us. But balance is everything.
And if you wish to cite the Greeks, please consider how Sparta ended up in late classical times... when Greeks and Romans went to watch the sado-masochistic religious rites of Orthia (the Spartan Artemis) as tourists. Orthia was the goddess of fertility whose hymen was restored by taking a bath. I shudder to think what the next generation will do should they ever toughen up. It is unlikely to be an unmixed blessing.
Imagine a 'Bronze Age' paedagogy under real world conditions in the emerging North American dystopia: an Afro-Saxon culture, a diverse population, a national mania for ideology and widespread gun ownership. Forget Greeks, Scythians and Persians for a moment...imagine the Vikings of Wakanda with social norms formed by the Marvel comics of today.
Counterpoint: the battle of the Harzhorn, 235 AD or thereabouts. The Teutoburg battle was also a large-scale operation led by a man schooled in Roman military tactics and strategy.
Speaking of Antifa, weakness and external appearance, you ever seen John Carpenter's "Ghosts of Mars?". That film's premise describes Anteefers to a "T". Possession by some kind of ancient spirits causes them to disfigure themselves and try to destroy society.
What's really scary is that some of them are being trained by someone with knowledge of military tactics. I read an article a while back about how Antifa chased four military/contractor types out of town.
They used C3 (command, control and communications) to neutralize the contractors' training and concealed weapons by coordinated use of flashlights/lasers, physical attacks and mass.
I'll have to find the link later, but it's a pretty chilling read.
Update10-25-22: Here's the link to the post about Antifa with apparent tactical training.
I'd put my money on the koryos, in the koryos vs phalanx showdown. The Germanic tribes of the 1st century AD were more or less the direct descendants of those lads, and the Roman legions couldn't take them, despite their superior weaponry, tactics, and famous discipline.
I was reading up on the koryos a while ago. We'd do well to bring something like that back as a coming of age. The ancient Greeks understood that civilization could only really be justified if it enabled barbarian vigor to be preserved, and consciously sought to make themselves the middle path between barbarians such as the Scythians, and over-civilized peoples such as the Persians ... though it was the Scythians they admired more.
I've often felt that we could achieve quite a bit if we raised our youth as if it were the bronze age, and only after they passed their coming of age tests allowed them the comforts of modernity.
"I've often felt that we could achieve quite a bit if we raised our youth as if it were the bronze age, and only after they passed their coming of age tests allowed them the comforts of modernity."
I agree with that in theory. It's a fine line. On the one hand, you don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, which in this case could be the sacrifices and hard won victories of the past. On the other hand, Western kids today are as soft as melted butter. And the koryos are still out there prowling the countryside, albeit in different skins.
I think organizations like the Boy Scouts were intended to capture something of this effect, albeit under adult supervision and without the rape and murder.
Right. Or at least, significantly less of that.
You've gotta admit, Human Hunter would make a heckuva merit badge.
So would "Advanced Rape Specialist"
"The Germanic tribes of the 1st century AD were more or less the direct descendants of those lads, and the Roman legions couldn't take them..."
I know what you're saying, but I attribute that less to comparative battle fitness than to lack of interest and the general exhaustion from previous expansions. Most attempts at conquering seemed half-hearted to me. Much of the territory was forested wasteland, not fit to plunder and with poor bivouacking potential. Plus legions required a lot of support in terms of supplies, and armies march on their bellies after all. In fact, I think that was the weakest aspect of their military, at least by that point in time.
ETA: And that's not even to mention the waning of their virtue structure by then, at least among the patricians.
I agree. The Romans had no interest or need in the northern extremities of Europe such as Caledonia, Hibernia or Germania. Rome was supplied by everything it wanted from the regions around the Mediterranean. The only exceptions were luxuries such as silk from China, spices from India and South Arabia, amber from the Baltic.
The Romans successfully pacified those parts of central Europe they wanted (in Switzerland) and the cost/benefit ratio of investing in the logistics necessary to do the same in Germany east of the Rhine suggested calling it quits. Traditionally, the saner Germans often used to say that this was a pity and that they would have benefited from the Romans pushing eastwards. There is much to recommend this perspective.
This is a good point. Olive oil, for instance, congeals at high latitudes; the Romans were unwilling to switch to butter, which put them at a disadvantage.
Not be a spoiler, John, but the last time modern people, capable of industrialised warfare, embraced heroic world-views (the decades beginning in 1914) tens of millions died and left the very legacy of demoralisation with which we struggle today. Old fashioned ideas (especially Bronze Age ones) have much to teach us. But balance is everything.
And if you wish to cite the Greeks, please consider how Sparta ended up in late classical times... when Greeks and Romans went to watch the sado-masochistic religious rites of Orthia (the Spartan Artemis) as tourists. Orthia was the goddess of fertility whose hymen was restored by taking a bath. I shudder to think what the next generation will do should they ever toughen up. It is unlikely to be an unmixed blessing.
Imagine a 'Bronze Age' paedagogy under real world conditions in the emerging North American dystopia: an Afro-Saxon culture, a diverse population, a national mania for ideology and widespread gun ownership. Forget Greeks, Scythians and Persians for a moment...imagine the Vikings of Wakanda with social norms formed by the Marvel comics of today.
Counterpoint: the battle of the Harzhorn, 235 AD or thereabouts. The Teutoburg battle was also a large-scale operation led by a man schooled in Roman military tactics and strategy.
Speaking of Antifa, weakness and external appearance, you ever seen John Carpenter's "Ghosts of Mars?". That film's premise describes Anteefers to a "T". Possession by some kind of ancient spirits causes them to disfigure themselves and try to destroy society.
What's really scary is that some of them are being trained by someone with knowledge of military tactics. I read an article a while back about how Antifa chased four military/contractor types out of town.
They used C3 (command, control and communications) to neutralize the contractors' training and concealed weapons by coordinated use of flashlights/lasers, physical attacks and mass.
I'll have to find the link later, but it's a pretty chilling read.
Update10-25-22: Here's the link to the post about Antifa with apparent tactical training.
https://www.americanpartisan.org/2020/09/antifa-reality-check/
Technically, the Roman miles wasn’t a hoplite.
and roman infantry is never called a phalanx